I'm nearing on halfway through, taking books as I do... in doses between (and during) all other activities. I am not a being ordered enough to set aside time just for reading, or painting, or writing poetry, or meditation, each day. I do each when I feel I can, or need to, or want to... for I lose patience with them when I specify when I'm going to do what. So Ishmael has been with me in my car through the construction, between appointments for dropping the tiger off at work, getting my birth control, shopping errands...
It is an alarming account of the kind of problems I throw to my subconscious to chew on. I've not been so compelled to write in a book since my seminar classes; but Ishmael is a book that demands to be seminared through, and so much of my handwritten thought along the margins and in between paragraphs already. I feel like I am alongside the narrator, learning also.. not like I am watching, or being told the narrators account. I am definately drawn in.
What's more exciting, however, is the idea that If one cannot find what is keeping one in, one cannot escape it. Further, that the key to escaping what makes one captive is to first find 'the bars of the cage'. Because of my personal, spiritual situations this different angle is a new kind of excitement. Other things in the book, already, have corroborated other beliefs I've had about the nature of order and chaos, and beings guided dominantly by either force.
I'm sure I will have more thoughts later... because I'm only a little over a third of the way through the work.
i'm very sorry for the delay in replying this is a little bit intimidating, and i'm a little bit tired
it took me a year to begin to read that book but once i did i was changed you should read the story of b as well, further the ideas inside of ishmael (if i had my own copy of the book it would be so messy with my words) btw, _tribal a flawed beginning for writings on the subject, by me, that you might like to see?
that way he has of making you the nameless student is quite brilliant (in his second sequel, my ishmael, he reveals the name of the character, and also teaches lesson to a young girl, new and different lessons so i would advise you to read that one as well
and for a book by another author try a language older than words by derrick jensen
reading is often snatched time for me as well, except when i stay awake through the nights
but your lack of order is a good thing!
anyways
religion, to me, is way of control controlling people and worldviews and our perception of the divine and our planet controlling our destiny, compelling us to conquer and destroy and extract
(all of our planet- beasts as well as men, as the labels call us)
I'll definately have a look at that writing of yours.
Though I appreciate your answer, I was asking less... what religion -means- than... I'm lost as to how to phrase my specific question. Perhaps it would be better 'Where would you draw the line between -religion- and mere 'spirituality''
I feel, myself, that I am a spiritual entity... though not a religious one. Religion, in the simple of it, boils down to the following, usually but not always en masse, of something someone else said on a 'spiritual' or 'moral' level, that would then turn to theoretically affect the daily lives of the person subscribing. The key part there is that it is -something someone else said-. A manifeisto layed down by another being, whether earthly or divine. A 'prophet' if you will, as they are called in Ishmael. A prophet to tell one how they are supposed to live. In that sense, Darwinian atheism would be a religion of sorts. What do you think?
I don't know, having put that to words, that I could in this medium explain to you what I believe spirituality is, let alone the particular pendulum that has sway in my life.
By the way, don't worry about tardy responses. We all have other obligations, physical and mental, that keep us from computers and correspondance from time to time. I understand completely, and I'm glad to have heard from you none the less.
I've been eyeing The Life of B and My Ishmael on the shelf for some time... but I'm already taxing my budget-allowances for my upcoming paycheck, just by what I already have ON my hold-shelf at work. *sigh*. I fear working at this bookstore might be more of a drain on my resources than it is a source of income. *smile*
it was written in a few months of spur-of-the-moment i'm not happy with it, but i've decided to leave it so i can learn from the lesson
spirituality is love and living and some weird shit thrown in on the side really, it's whatever a person wants it to be, and very hard to define because of that
i think you're right, in regards to religion and prophets.
our many and varied obligations, such as they are the story of be *smile* and it is even better than ishmael, in my opinion
I'll add it too this list. I'm fanatic and neurotic when it comes to reading most books... I'll pick up other things and go back to other things, and hope I finish what I start. A fluttering, you know.
I love working where I work. It is unlike any other used bookstore I've ever been in... and it's the largest I've ever been in. On first entry, it doesn't -look- like a used bookstore at all because we've(they've) expanded so much in the last twelve years... It's super-clean, well lit, and reasonably well organized. Our book buyers are very choosy about condition... we see a lot of books come through that are in mint condition, and approximately 15% of our stock are actually new.
In that way, it lacks some of the atmosphere of many bookstores I've been in... even some of the atmosphere that I valued, that it used to have. I'm very much a fan of dusty nooks and books that have other people's writing in them.
Nonetheless, Title Wave is a fantastic business... and a fantastic place to work. I'm very pleased. I really feel like... right now, for the moment, this is a good niche for me. The job was a windfall such like I have never seen... the day I turned in my app, I was interviewed and later called with my starting date.
I liked the writing in Tribal, by the way. I didn't realize it untill afterwards that it was something from a while back... I thought, when you'd posted, that it was something you were -beginning- or had recently began. It sounds... a little disorganized, a little breathless. Perhaps something geared more toward community discussion would be better? An LJ community, or messageboard on another server? I don't know about the rest of your fans, but I for one would be happy to participate. I'm sure I could use the inspiration.
when you find an author, one that really means something to you, then the temptation is overwhelming to just devour all their works and words and life
it's not a convention used bookstore- somewhat elite? i prefer the romaniticism of dusty nooks and hidden treasures more *smile*
it still sounds like a magnificant job to have!
i have contemplated many times making tribal a community, but... that's what anotherway is for, isn't it? i agree that the idea suffers from having only my voice...
I echo your sentiments entirely on bookstores. *sigh* But, like I said... a job's a job. I'd rather be working here than some corporate office supplies store, or something o.O
I'll have a look at the community.
Somehow, tonight, I'm all out of words that won't reach people immediately. I'm all talk with the people I have in real time, but somehow, when I take an approach like a post or letter - like this, or the letter I wrote my sister - I'm dry. It's a strange feeling. Likely just that I'm tired from work... today was one of two opening shifts, early mornings.
The community looked a little... puply, if you know what I mean. I appreciate that it exists... though I feel it may be serving more as a facet of a support system for these kind of people, rather than a focus for thought.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if it can do a whole lot more than that. To get really streamlined, focussed ideas, I think you need a feircer rapport. Closer knit conversations between fewer people, or a gathering in life where people can -actually- connect with one another on a more real level. On a broader level. I think one would be more likely to really absorb the energies and feelings of like minded people on a physical level, whereas progress is... slower made over such a distant, digial medium.
I meant to mention, and realized when I hit the post button.
A young man in the organic restaurant near where myself and my significant work struck up a conversation based on the reading material laying on the table at the time. Which would have been Ishmael. He said it had been years since he read it, and he didn't remember many of the details... but it had definately made an impression on his life, and he thought of it frequently day to day. He reccomended Herman Hesse, especially Sidhartha. Have you read it? If so, what do you think?
It was really quite interesting. I admire people who are able to just start talking to a complete stranger about something. I'm not entirely sure if I'm bold enough to do something like that in person, at this point.
i have tried to read siddhartha before, but i didn't get it, so i've put it down and filed it away to be read another day (something i quite regularly do with books, especially "classics")
everyone i know who has read ishmael has been changed by it. it's simply remarkable.
i'm somewhat shy with strangers in groups, especially with friends, but i am usually polite and embarrassedly talkative to people otherwise
When it comes to a stranger in a group of people that I know, it's a totally different thing. I feel an odd, though overwhelming, feeling of... expectation. These are people that know me to be a certain way, and if I am not that certain way with the stranger... it's wrong.
This is giving way to a reasonable extent, however. Through my latter highschool years, I think I did well to establish myself as a relatively impulsive person. I do things because I want to, and because I feel like it. So, if my intuition called me to behave in one way or another, there are few very close to me that would be surprised at such actions. Or, if they were, the issue would not be -that- it happened, but -why- (this being due to the fact that those close to me also understand that I put a lot of stock in 'gut feelings', and there's usually a reason behind them).
I believe what you say about everyone being affected by the volume. Quinn puts together his case with such meticulous logic, that I often find myself thinking 'Why has this not occurred to me?'. It's disconcerting, but in a pleasant, productive-feeling manner.
As to Hesse... it hasn't been Sidhartha that has interested me in the past so much as a few of his other books. I couldn't tell you the titles now, as that I do not remember them, but if I saw them again I would so... some time when I have some free roaming time that I don't feel guilty using to roam freely, I'll take a look.
Also, have you read much of the poet Kahlil Gibran? We have... almost a shelf and a half of his work in our section, and 'The Prophet' has been reccomended to me more than once. It has not, however, beckoned to me yet... I've picked up books of his more than once and flicked through the pages hastily, and have not had the overwhelming need to stash it and look at it in more depth yet. It's not the right time, if I'm meant to read it.
I do understand, however, your stashing of books for a potentially indefinate postponment of later. I've done it more than once myself. Oddly enough, 1984 is in that pile right now. I was eating through it like brushfire, and was over halfway done when something in me just... shut off like a light. Reading it became a chore. So I put it down, and will need to finish it some time.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2003-07-23 10:34 pm (UTC)I'm nearing on halfway through, taking books as I do... in doses between (and during) all other activities. I am not a being ordered enough to set aside time just for reading, or painting, or writing poetry, or meditation, each day. I do each when I feel I can, or need to, or want to... for I lose patience with them when I specify when I'm going to do what. So Ishmael has been with me in my car through the construction, between appointments for dropping the tiger off at work, getting my birth control, shopping errands...
It is an alarming account of the kind of problems I throw to my subconscious to chew on. I've not been so compelled to write in a book since my seminar classes; but Ishmael is a book that demands to be seminared through, and so much of my handwritten thought along the margins and in between paragraphs already. I feel like I am alongside the narrator, learning also.. not like I am watching, or being told the narrators account. I am definately drawn in.
What's more exciting, however, is the idea that If one cannot find what is keeping one in, one cannot escape it. Further, that the key to escaping what makes one captive is to first find 'the bars of the cage'. Because of my personal, spiritual situations this different angle is a new kind of excitement. Other things in the book, already, have corroborated other beliefs I've had about the nature of order and chaos, and beings guided dominantly by either force.
I'm sure I will have more thoughts later... because I'm only a little over a third of the way through the work.
Also, how would you define 'religion'?
no subject
Date: 2003-07-28 06:42 pm (UTC)this is a little bit intimidating, and i'm a little bit tired
it took me a year to begin to read that book
but once i did i was changed
you should read the story of b as well, further the ideas inside of ishmael
(if i had my own copy of the book it would be so messy with my words)
btw,
a flawed beginning for writings on the subject, by me, that you might like to see?
that way he has of making you the nameless student is quite brilliant
(in his second sequel, my ishmael, he reveals the name of the character, and also teaches lesson to a young girl, new and different lessons
so i would advise you to read that one as well
and for a book by another author try a language older than words by derrick jensen
reading is often snatched time for me as well, except when i stay awake through the nights
but your lack of order is a good thing!
anyways
religion, to me, is way of control
controlling people and worldviews and our perception of the divine and our planet
controlling our destiny, compelling us to conquer and destroy and extract
(all of our planet- beasts as well as men, as the labels call us)
we have found the bars of the cage now.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-29 01:47 am (UTC)Though I appreciate your answer, I was asking less... what religion -means- than... I'm lost as to how to phrase my specific question. Perhaps it would be better 'Where would you draw the line between -religion- and mere 'spirituality''
I feel, myself, that I am a spiritual entity... though not a religious one. Religion, in the simple of it, boils down to the following, usually but not always en masse, of something someone else said on a 'spiritual' or 'moral' level, that would then turn to theoretically affect the daily lives of the person subscribing. The key part there is that it is -something someone else said-. A manifeisto layed down by another being, whether earthly or divine. A 'prophet' if you will, as they are called in Ishmael. A prophet to tell one how they are supposed to live. In that sense, Darwinian atheism would be a religion of sorts. What do you think?
I don't know, having put that to words, that I could in this medium explain to you what I believe spirituality is, let alone the particular pendulum that has sway in my life.
By the way, don't worry about tardy responses. We all have other obligations, physical and mental, that keep us from computers and correspondance from time to time. I understand completely, and I'm glad to have heard from you none the less.
I've been eyeing The Life of B and My Ishmael on the shelf for some time... but I'm already taxing my budget-allowances for my upcoming paycheck, just by what I already have ON my hold-shelf at work. *sigh*. I fear working at this bookstore might be more of a drain on my resources than it is a source of income. *smile*
no subject
Date: 2003-07-29 09:11 pm (UTC)i'm not happy with it, but i've decided to leave it so i can learn from the lesson
spirituality is love and living and some weird shit thrown in on the side
really, it's whatever a person wants it to be, and very hard to define because of that
i think you're right, in regards to religion and prophets.
our many and varied obligations, such as they are
the story of be *smile*
and it is even better than ishmael, in my opinion
i want to work in a bookshop
i used bookshop
no subject
Date: 2003-07-29 11:06 pm (UTC)I love working where I work. It is unlike any other used bookstore I've ever been in... and it's the largest I've ever been in. On first entry, it doesn't -look- like a used bookstore at all because we've(they've) expanded so much in the last twelve years... It's super-clean, well lit, and reasonably well organized. Our book buyers are very choosy about condition... we see a lot of books come through that are in mint condition, and approximately 15% of our stock are actually new.
In that way, it lacks some of the atmosphere of many bookstores I've been in... even some of the atmosphere that I valued, that it used to have. I'm very much a fan of dusty nooks and books that have other people's writing in them.
Nonetheless, Title Wave is a fantastic business... and a fantastic place to work. I'm very pleased. I really feel like... right now, for the moment, this is a good niche for me. The job was a windfall such like I have never seen... the day I turned in my app, I was interviewed and later called with my starting date.
I liked the writing in Tribal, by the way. I didn't realize it untill afterwards that it was something from a while back... I thought, when you'd posted, that it was something you were -beginning- or had recently began. It sounds... a little disorganized, a little breathless. Perhaps something geared more toward community discussion would be better? An LJ community, or messageboard on another server? I don't know about the rest of your fans, but I for one would be happy to participate. I'm sure I could use the inspiration.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-31 07:52 pm (UTC)it's not a convention used bookstore- somewhat elite?
i prefer the romaniticism of dusty nooks and hidden treasures more *smile*
it still sounds like a magnificant job to have!
i have contemplated many times making tribal a community, but... that's what
i agree that the idea suffers from having only my voice...
no subject
Date: 2003-08-01 10:48 pm (UTC)I'll have a look at the community.
Somehow, tonight, I'm all out of words that won't reach people immediately. I'm all talk with the people I have in real time, but somehow, when I take an approach like a post or letter - like this, or the letter I wrote my sister - I'm dry. It's a strange feeling. Likely just that I'm tired from work... today was one of two opening shifts, early mornings.
Take care.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-02 09:25 pm (UTC)it's the ishmael community on livejournal, but i don't think i like it very much
there are never any new ideas there
i know that feeling
no subject
Date: 2003-08-02 11:50 pm (UTC)On the other hand, I'm not sure if it can do a whole lot more than that. To get really streamlined, focussed ideas, I think you need a feircer rapport. Closer knit conversations between fewer people, or a gathering in life where people can -actually- connect with one another on a more real level. On a broader level. I think one would be more likely to really absorb the energies and feelings of like minded people on a physical level, whereas progress is... slower made over such a distant, digial medium.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-03 07:07 pm (UTC)i've tried before to meet a person from ishmael-supporting website, but it didn't happen...
no subject
Date: 2003-08-02 11:54 pm (UTC)A young man in the organic restaurant near where myself and my significant work struck up a conversation based on the reading material laying on the table at the time. Which would have been Ishmael. He said it had been years since he read it, and he didn't remember many of the details... but it had definately made an impression on his life, and he thought of it frequently day to day. He reccomended Herman Hesse, especially Sidhartha. Have you read it? If so, what do you think?
It was really quite interesting. I admire people who are able to just start talking to a complete stranger about something. I'm not entirely sure if I'm bold enough to do something like that in person, at this point.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-03 07:05 pm (UTC)everyone i know who has read ishmael has been changed by it. it's simply remarkable.
i'm somewhat shy with strangers in groups, especially with friends, but i am usually polite and embarrassedly talkative to people otherwise
no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 12:05 am (UTC)This is giving way to a reasonable extent, however. Through my latter highschool years, I think I did well to establish myself as a relatively impulsive person. I do things because I want to, and because I feel like it. So, if my intuition called me to behave in one way or another, there are few very close to me that would be surprised at such actions. Or, if they were, the issue would not be -that- it happened, but -why- (this being due to the fact that those close to me also understand that I put a lot of stock in 'gut feelings', and there's usually a reason behind them).
I believe what you say about everyone being affected by the volume. Quinn puts together his case with such meticulous logic, that I often find myself thinking 'Why has this not occurred to me?'. It's disconcerting, but in a pleasant, productive-feeling manner.
As to Hesse... it hasn't been Sidhartha that has interested me in the past so much as a few of his other books. I couldn't tell you the titles now, as that I do not remember them, but if I saw them again I would so... some time when I have some free roaming time that I don't feel guilty using to roam freely, I'll take a look.
Also, have you read much of the poet Kahlil Gibran? We have... almost a shelf and a half of his work in our section, and 'The Prophet' has been reccomended to me more than once. It has not, however, beckoned to me yet... I've picked up books of his more than once and flicked through the pages hastily, and have not had the overwhelming need to stash it and look at it in more depth yet. It's not the right time, if I'm meant to read it.
I do understand, however, your stashing of books for a potentially indefinate postponment of later. I've done it more than once myself. Oddly enough, 1984 is in that pile right now. I was eating through it like brushfire, and was over halfway done when something in me just... shut off like a light. Reading it became a chore. So I put it down, and will need to finish it some time.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 12:39 am (UTC)i have read the prophet, and some collections of thoughts and so on... i liked it, but not overwhelmingly so
it took my 5 years to begin to read 1984, but i read it in 2 days... i thought it was brilliant, and still do.